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Community Consensus on Physical and Technological Matters: Discussion

Poll
Question: Shall we restore the status of Plasma Weaponry back to the status quo?
Yes.
No.

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Author Topic: Community Consensus on Physical and Technological Matters: Discussion  (Read 439 times)
UFO King
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« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2011, 03:31:37 am »

Yeah, plausibility does nothing for the RP. I'll bet if you were doing a WW2 RP you'd criticize someone for trying to explain how exactly the nuclear bomb works. But your main point is right; we do need to focus more on the roleplaying. I've wasted enough of my time today with foolishness. I could've done so much more, but no! More and more stalling! My update promises are a joke! God damn it all!
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Bard
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« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2011, 10:37:14 am »

yea. we have a couple rp's to get going with. lets do that instead.
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But that's another story for another time...
Yuu
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« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2011, 11:53:43 am »

So, shall I wipe off these two threads for cleanliness purposes or what?
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« Reply #48 on: November 18, 2011, 09:27:35 pm »

Sorry to kick an already dead horse (I mean that in the figure-of-speech tense, that is. Pardon any vulgar mental images), I absolutely have to point out something with this whole "Plasma Weapons fire shells that contain plasma" thing, and being the de-facto military guy of the board, I'm apparently to first to realize this:
To make these things anything smaller than Tank-shell size, you're got, out of a list of problems, the four main issues here to deal with:
In order to keep the Plasma from utterly annhilating the projectile it's in, you would need a magnetic containment bubble. That requires a power supply. Problem 1.
Any reliable magnetic containment device would chew up the majority of the shell's size, and even so much as dropping it could destabilize it as to destroy the shell. Problem 2.
Even if you could manage to fit a power supply AND magnetic containment device into the shell, you'd be dealing with such a small amount of plasma that a more traditional HE warhead would be more effective. Hell, at that point, just firing a plain ol' bullet would be more effective! Problem 3.
Now, for the BIG ISSUE.
There would be ABSOLUTELY NO FRIGGIN WAY TO MAKE THESE THINGS SELF-PROPELLED. Or, in other words, you'd need a cartridge. Now, look back at Problem 2. If dropping it would be enough to destroy the round, do you honestly thing an EXPLOSION going off at the ass-end of the round is going to go very well? You'd end up destroying the round AND at LEAST the firing chamber of the gun!
Ergo, having these things in the hands of an infantryman isn't going to happen. By going the "Plasma Weapons are shellguns" route you're essentially eliminating all non-armor-mounted Plasma weapons.
Not only that, you're also forcing a radical redesign of several arsenals including the Photos. To give a rough estimate, about 80% of their arsenal has to be completely rewritten (Plasma Lances, Mass-Reactive Weaponry, and Plasma Projectors, to name a few!) and everything else has to be re-designed to factor in a magazine of some form.
This is not a simple fix. We're talking a few WEEKS of sitting down and revising massive amounts of people's arsenal here.
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Yuu
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« Reply #49 on: November 18, 2011, 10:38:11 pm »

Good points.



Not to be purposely partial, but I deem it justifiable to bring up relevant facts that some might not be aware of due to how ancient they are.

What Grox said about revising is actually true not just for the Photos, but for a lot of other civilizations as well. Most armed forces both in the past age and in the current one use plasma weapons for a fraction of their stuff.

Revising it would be the real world equivalent of replacing all NATO rounds that have ever existed, as well as most guns that use them.



So, any one else have a different view on the matter?
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UFO King
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« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2011, 11:09:26 pm »

Good point, I never actually thought about the power supply in shells.

Well, that does it. As far as I know the feasibility of a plasma weapon is impossible. Any attempts at a cheap, reliable and efficient plasma gun are totally futile. Back to the drawing board.

What's wrong with lasers, kinetic weapons and particle beams, anyway? Why is everyone so loathe to accept those? Heck, the latter two don't actually travel at the speed of light; you could still see them move.
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« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2011, 11:16:22 pm »

thats what i've been thinking all along.  my race only uses explosives and incendiaries that blow stuff up (it is actualy considered dishonorable to use weapons that require skill. even bullets)

the fancier the weapon, the more limited it probably is. A RPG is all pourpose.
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But that's another story for another time...
UFO King
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« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2011, 11:27:41 pm »

When in doubt, use the Mythbusters method: Duct tape and explosives. Cheesy
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Yuu
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« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2011, 12:31:48 am »

A RPG is all pourpose.

Honestly, I prepared a semi-rant about how I didn't want all ground battles to become obsolete, or the badassness of swords suddenly deconstructed and looked at in furiously condensending way, or how I didn't want all space combat reduce to "Guy who sees other guy first wins automatically."

Judging from people's reactions, I think they'd rather want artistic freedom over discussions regarding the theoretical efficiency of different weapon types.   Undecided

Basically, most people here aren't endeavoring to be as meticulous as this site.

Anyone who's at least been there a couple of days would understand the gravitas of that statement.   Wink


What's wrong with lasers, kinetic weapons and particle beams, anyway? Why is everyone so loathe to accept those? Heck, the latter two don't actually travel at the speed of light; you could still see them move.

It's not that they loathe lasers, it's just that it is honestly aesthetically different compared to a ball of hot matter splashing into your adversary's face. It's the sci-fi method of fielding long-range flamethrowers, basically.

It is the same reason why most pirate stories don't show the captain or other high-ranking officers favoring guns over swords.

Or why most flying games like Ace Combat knife-fighting range dogfights.

Or why vastly different species can live in the same atmoshpere, especially so for places like Beyon and Coruscant.

Or why FPSs have their characters always reload their guns so flawlessly, run so ridiculously fast for the weight they're carrying on their backs, never fail to notice the direction where the shot that hit them came from, never forget the exact number of ammo they have in their magazines and in their person, as well as never experience a single bullet jam, ever.

Or why the entire mecha/mech genre exists.

Or why Star Destroyers have extremely vulnerable bridges.

Or why FTL almost always doesn't result in time travel.

Or why modern depictions of samurai, even those made by the Japanese themselves, show them as swordsmen before archers.

Or why spaceships look like actual ships.

Or why modern war movies mostly focus on the infantry when in fact the artillery are the true kings of the battlefield.

Or why hypothetical Soviet invasion movies don't just all devolve into spamming nuke-tipped ICBMs.

Or why... eh, you probably get the point.


In any case, it's also not necessarily true that lasers, kinetic weapons and particle beams don't exist. They do, and in about almost the same numbers as plasma weapons, actually.

Eh, personally, TIER uses particle barriers and weaponry, Laser Missiles are basically homing industrial lasers (there's an infantry version, actually, though it never really did come up), Chivi mostly use solid weaponry.

And I'm sure even a basic search of past RPs would show depictions of lasers, kinetics and other stuff.


Plasma weaponry isn't as large a monopoly as it initially seems, honestly.   Smiley




This is all just me, though. I dunno about anybody else.

In any case, I'm gonna put up the pole now. Anyone feel free to add their thoughts.   Smiley
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« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2011, 01:33:02 am »

I'd just like to point out that all weaponry coming from Khuris uses solid projectiles, as any usage of high energy weapons would be catastrophic.

Also, Bino have to use inhalers in order to breathe in normal atmospheres. Another fact that's been around longer than they have. It's like a reverse helium ballon, where you can go without the helium for a while, but you'll suffocate without it.
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UFO King
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« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2011, 01:50:22 am »

Damn, Yuu...

You sure do know how to depress a guy.

What's the point of having harder sci-fi if nobody wants it? Why do those forums full of scientifically accurate people seem so full of mean-spiritedness? Why do I even bother trying so hard to make everything realistic and interesting? Why can't anyone seem to strike a chord hitting both realism and fun? Is real life just that boring to everybody else? Why doesn't anybody explore all the possibilities and potential of the universe, like a race of sapient parasites living in the insides of massive creatures that roam the skies of a gas giant, or floating creatures in the Venusian atmosphere who drink sulfuric acid, or brave warriors on a desert world who conserve their formamide like it was water?

Why should I even try if the softies ignore me and the hardliners insult me?
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« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2011, 02:01:50 am »

I don't quite think that the chord of science, story, and fun has been struck yet. Now that I think about it, that could be represented as a triangle, with each point representing one of those points. Optimally the pinpoint of all this would be in the center. Right now, I kind of think that scientific hardness when it comes to things that are trivial from the perspective of the other two points, like the whole FTL thing, hotly arguing about particles that don't impact the story of the Galaxy a huge amount. It's kind of throwing off the balance. That may scare off a few people.

Now I know that scientificness (pardon my Cave Johnsonism there) is a major part of this forum, but having too much of any point, only focusing on plot, throwing everything out for fun, or disregarding the point of it all just for scientific accuracy, will scare newcomers away. And face it. We need new blood in these forums if this is to stay alive, if this is to be continued for anything worthwhile.
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« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2011, 03:50:29 am »

UFO, I enjoy your hard science. And by enjoy I mean love. I love the hypothetical stuff, and stuff like that goes through my head all the time, even in regards to real life sometimes but that's a different story. Maybe if we created a council type group, two people into the science more and two people into the fiction more, that could create guidelines for us to follow, drawing a metaphorical line of where the science can step in and help make the impossible at least vaguely plausible. Just an Idea.
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Yuu
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« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2011, 04:03:29 am »

Checks thread title.

Though, yeah, this poll thing totally isn't working.

We need an organic discussion going on.

And it just seems appropriate that if we do start a new thread, the thread should probably be made by a neutral person.

So, whaddya guys think?



You sure do know how to depress a guy.

Sorry.

Totally unintended.



What's the point of having harder sci-fi if nobody wants it?

It's not that nobody wants harder sci-fi, it's just that "my" hard is different from "your" hard is different from "Grox's" hard is different from "Crazen's" hard is different from... and so on.

The recent application of technical stuff is all good and well. But it's when those technical stuff is imposed as "the only way" that relations begins to crumble.

Point is, judging from the past few weeks, people don't seem to like a Mohs scale of 4.2, and appear to prefer a 3.5 ~ 3.0 instead.



Why do those forums full of scientifically accurate people seem so full of mean-spiritedness?

Eh, what?

I'm not gonna be pointing names, but almost everyone here isn't really mean spirited.

They're just stressed and being pushed beyond their comfort zones far too often.

Grox with his plasma weapons.

You with your universal theory.

And everyone else that's been criticized and pounced upon drastically.

Really, this all stems from the fact that we can have it both ways but choose not to.

We can't make up our minds as a community because there will always be someone who opposes it who will never back down. The specific person may change but the end scenario is still the same.





So for once, can everyone, as in everyone who's a member of this community, just please leave each other's technical stuff alone and focus on the story, and interfere only when the stuff is reaching god mod levels without valid reasoning behind it?





Why do I even bother trying so hard to make everything realistic and interesting?

That's the problem.

Something doesn't have to be realistic to be interesting.

Really, there seems to be a subgenre dissonance between the people on this site.

Some don't care about Treknobabble as long as there's a good and epic story, while others want in-depth details about the technicalities and consequences of technology to come with the story. Both of which aren't necessarily bad. It's when you mix those two that the c0cktail gets spoiled.

It's like trying to mix Dune and Honor Harrington. You'll lose the political intrigue of the former because of the illogical nature of spice-induced prescience and the monopoly that the Navigators built around it, and then you'll lose the awesomeness induced by the latter's adherence to realistic and consistent technology application because "LolWeirding Way" and "LolKwisatz Haderach". What will you get in return? A bunch of dead sandworms and a Manticoran navy that can pwn the Solarian League, not because of competence, but because they can see the future.





Again, everyone must compromise. As it is, the current state of technical detail is already a great deal better than the Silver Age, let alone the Golden Age.

Look at Grox, for example. At first he created stuff like Neutron Singularities, but now you can clearly see that he's put a lot more thought into things.

Yet it appears no one has taken this into account whenever he is being criticized.

The same goes for Crazen, heck I pulled out the Terran-Ixian's for this exact reason.

We're not saying you should throw all of those stuff away, UFO, it's just that it's a fact of life that you just have to give up a fragment of your vision to allow others to fill that gap with theirs.

We respect your love for details, UFO, we really do, especially me. It really gives you your own special flavor. Still, sometimes thorough technical scrutiny isn't what the situation calls for.

There's a time and place for everything, whether it be essays on interesting cultures, technological exploration, fascinating local biology, or just plain going Klingon on those bad guys.





Is real life just that boring to everybody else?

I can't speak for anybody else, but I personally don't think most of us are as well versed in hard sci-fi in contrast with soft ones.

That's the thing.

Sometimes is just too hard, or too boring, for some to think over a piece of tech within the span of weeks before posting them. Mostly, they just use the tech as a literary device, relegating the focus of the story to the characters themselves.

While technological speculation-heavy stories aren't necessarily less good than drama-based ones, It helps to know that not everyone here derives much value from the details of their literary tools.

Let's face it. We tech speculation-focused guys are a minority here. On the other hand, that doesn't mean we can't enjoy our stuff now and then and give helpful advice to others. Advice, not rules. While we may sometimes be heavy on it, the fact doesn't change that it is still advice, and must be treated as such.

Only when unwarranted god mod occurs should we fully mobilize.



Why doesn't anybody explore all the possibilities and potential of the universe, like a race of sapient parasites living in the insides of massive creatures that roam the skies of a gas giant, or floating creatures in the Venusian atmosphere who drink sulfuric acid, or brave warriors on a desert world who conserve their formamide like it was water?

Hey, just on me alone, there's...

... a silicon-based aquatic race which depends on electricity the same way people breather air.

... a blind nitrogen triflouride breathing race of desert dwellers that paradoxically specialize in aerospace technology.

... a civilization of farmers with vestigial plant parts that tend to a planet-spanning tree with several layers, all of which serve as foundations for entire ecosystems with some reaching the upper parts of the troposphere via mountain crawling, balloon segments, and different methods of water collection.

... a culture of closet warmongers who channel away their murderous tendencies through sports and strict discipline, and live in a deathworld filled with the most bizarre wildlife survival strategies.

... and a society which depends gravely on technology just so they can live a semblance of a normal life, who also happen to have rather tragic issues regarding bioethical principles.

Lush had sentient fungus.

The Graid are biologically immortal and design their own body parts.

Clarke has methane creatures.

And so on.



Why should I even try if the softies ignore me and the hardliners insult me?

No one's insulting you.


*concerned slap*


They aren't ignoring you either. They're voicing out their opinion. It just happens that that opinion sometimes includes the fact that they don't agree with the level of standardization that's being proposed.

That doesn't mean you should automatically quit making these stuff. Look at Crazen, ask him how many people visit his thread. At least your proposals attract actual traffic and discussion.

On the other hand, don't force yourself either. Stress can be bad for you and can even cloud your mind. At the very least take solace in the fact that while they may not adapt your system fully, they also aren't against taking some of your advice on some technical matters.





Furthermore, while we may sometimes get on each other's nerves, we're far, far away from most other sites' levels of hostility and snarkiness.

That, I can assure you firsthand.    Wink
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UFO King
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« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2011, 05:31:39 am »

Aw...

Thanks, guys. I understand it all now.

Yuu, I wasn't saying anyone here was mean or insulting, oh no. I meant those "hostile, snarky" sites. You know, like that Star Destroyer site where there's a guy who wrote articles that made a lot of sense but came off as being a jerkwad.

And I wasn't being appreciative enough, and you're all...oh dammit, I'm getting all teary-eyed.

...

Thanks.
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